Bring me more!
You know as an outsider who doesn’t give a damn whether or not Scotland becomes independent all your gloating makes you look really insecure
If Texas voted 45% for independence, despite the obvious disadvantages, I would assume that everyone who was gloating and saying things like “IT’S OVER FOR A LIFETIME” were engaging in an awful lot of wishful thinking
37% approx 4-5% more than they managed last time they tried this (1979) and significantly less than the number of people who supported devolution (75%)…yes I think they are a seriously spent force for most of my lifetime unless we end up with a UKIP majority in Westminster .
I’m not insecure, I’m a dick who has no time for people trying to run my country into the ground.
And I really doubt they are. If I were a smart Scottish nationalist, I’d begin building economic ties to other nations besides the UK and doing my best to make my economy independent.
I’m simply going by my observation that despite the obvious disadvantages (and from what I hear, incompetent leadership) of the nationalists, they gained 45% of the vote for independence. So I ask myself: If there was no economic disadvantage to independence, if the UK didn’t offer siginficant prestige (as in the future, it probably will not), would the majority have voted for independence?
If that’s the case (and I think there’s a good chance it may be) then the UK as it currently is is already dead, it just doesn’t know it yet.
I think you’ve misunderstood…the nationalists had *every* possible advantage they could ever possibly have, they have been the dominant political leadership of Scotland since 2011, were the minority govt since 2007…they have had 7 years to lay the groundwork for this with over a million Scottish supporters and they had a massive economic recession (and the resulting budget/social service cuts) to beat the No thanks campaign over the head with and still they utterly failed to convince the rest of the population that independence was a viable option.
Well, I wouldn’t say 45% on such a dramatic issue is ‘utter failure’. Perhaps if their vote was in the low thirties, but 45% is reasonably close to success.
Not to mention a sitting conservative government in Westminster and really I can’t explain how much Scotland hates the Tories…maybe imagine a Gay Athiest Communist party trying to run on a platform of gun control and social welfare in Texas*?
And is the conservative government likely to never win an election again? Is it out of the realm of possibility that an even MORE conservative government may win? Because if not, then the exact same, or even worse, political circumstances can easily be reproduced.
The only way they could have had more of an advantage is if William Wallace and Robert the Bruce rose from the dead and personally led the campaign with speeches written by Rabbie Burns and the US Federal reserve offered to stand for our new currency.
But this contradicts other things you’ve said. Supposedly they had every advantage, but leadership was terrible, didn’t propose realistic future plans, and economic and monetary independence was not planned for at all.
What happens if the nationalists get good leadership, build non-UK economic ties, and formulate a plan for monetary independence? If this vote relied overmuch on simple emotional appeal while ignoring the hard realities, and still managed to get 45 percent of the vote, then what would happen if the nationalists formed a somewhat realistic plan? Don’t say it’s impossible, nothing is impossible. Coordinated government efforts by small but well-directed nations can make them easily economically independent by customizing their nation’s laws to fit niche industries that are nonetheless vital.
*Yes I’m using a gross national stereotype plus hyperbole but really the tories in Scotland…snowballs and hell spring to mind. Oh I can use this picture to explain: Margaret Thatcher is the Tory to a lot of Scots, the embodiment of everything about them till the end of time and here is the reaction to her death…
I’m aware of Thatcher’s reputation as Britain’s version of Reagan. Years on, Reagan’s memory still inspired secessionist fantasies in liberals in America, a country where, the last time someone tried seceding, we burned down their cities and shoveled their citizens into mass graves. They also thought that Reagan would be the most conservative government America would face for a long time. If the Tories now are bad, how loudly will Scotland howl for independence if an even more conservative government should take hold at some point in the future?
Maybe you’re right and Scotland won’t try for independence again in our lifetime. You surely know the local politics better than I do. But, and this is no insult, I think I can say you’re probably not the most objective about it. You’d probably very much prefer that the independence issue was settled for all time, and it probably personally affects you.
As an American, Scotland’s independence has little bearing on me one way or the other. It doesn’t affect me in any way, and it’s difficult to see how the issue may have any major effect on any of the major politics I’m concerned with, other than the somewhat unpredictable effects it would have on relationship between the UK and America. In addition I don’t have Scottish heritage or anything, so it’s not like this issue holds any particular emotional impact for me. But given the realities of the vote, I’m having a hard time seeing why people think that this vote means the issue is dead and done with forever. Nearly half the people of Scotland just chose to quit a centuries-old union. That’s pretty dramatic, or so it seems to me. I do live in a country where secessionists are largely seen as cranks and losers, under a government that would likely go to war to regain the lost territory. That may color my perception of things.
It just seems unrealistic to me to declare it settled and done for. What happens if Scotland becomes more economically independent? What happens when the UK is no longer regarded as “A step below the superpowers” militarily, but rather as a mid-sized competitor among dozens? What happens if the UK goes through an extended recession? When so many people gave economics and prestige as a reason for staying, rather than any sense of emotional connection to the union, I have to wonder what would happen if circumstances changed. I wouldn’t be surprised if this issue pops up again in 20 years or so.
I think you’re looking at this from too American PoV, by which I mean your country is massive, your states are pretty viable entities in their own rights…that’s not the case in the UK..I mean the obvious problem is our size..everyone is dependent on the other parts of the UK, loathe as the Nationalists are to admit it.
This isn’t Texas seceding from the Union, it’s Wichita falls declaring itself a sovereign nation.
Maybe. Although Scotland isn’t that small. It has a population of what, five million? It’s actually would be around the 20th most populated state. It would be a small nation, but not THAT small.
I mean dude, I could sit here for hours and list all the ways in which separating from the Union would fuck this country sideways but frankly I don’t have the time or energy and I doubt you really want a crash course in Scotlands local politics*, economics and demographics..or even the UK internal politics* and infrastructure but trust me…the Union is changing, the devolved govt is probably going to gain more powers, we might even see a purely English parliament come into being but all these things…they’re only going to weaken the argument for independence.
Maybe. Or maybe the devolved powers will simply allow Scotland more power to achieve a more realistic independence some day in the future. There have been other instances in history where states that were slowly coming apart tried to stall the process by giving up centralized power. It didn’t always appease the people who wanted independence. Time will tell.
*This is an outsiders perspective but your US politics always seem to insanely binary, pick party a or b…that’s it, the Scottish parliament alone has *nips away to double check* six sitting (as in actually have members of the Scottish parliament) parties with nine other contesting parties (as in fielded a candidate but did not win a seat) …for a country of barely 5 million people.
The US party system disguises a lot of political thought beneath the veneer of career politicians who are forced to reconcile quite a lot of differing politics to get things done. Factions on the right include social conservatives, militantly atheist objectivists, isolationists, war hawks, and a very influential faction descended from Trotskyists of all things. The parties are just very good at beating all that into something that appears monolithic. You really need to look outside of the politicians, to the actual so-called “think tanks” who fund them, if you really want to get an idea of all the factions seething beneath the seemingly placid surface of the two separate US parties. It’s really nothing short of a miracle how they manage it. Half of these people should be killing the other half.
Lets skip back to the start here.
And firstly - our gloating doesn’t make us look insecure. It makes us look relieved. Because that’s how we feel right now, let me tell you.
But let me ask you a question.
Are you pissed off because we are celebrating a political victory?
Is our celebration, in your eyes, somehow belittling us?
Is the relief and joy we feel not justified or even allowed?
Is the fact that, inevitably, we will sometimes celebrate this victory in a juvenile and dickish manner offending you on a personal level?
Or do you simply wish to debate the relative pros and cons of Scottish independence?
You seem to have a different definition of time than I do. Because nietzschesghost says the nationalists are a spent force ‘in most of my lifetime’. Well, he is 33 years old. His life expectancy is around 73 years. That makes his lifetime another 40 years. So if this issue ‘pops up’ in another ‘20 years or so’ then that is most of his lifetime. Right? Maybe consider that your lifetime and his are two different time periods?
It is ‘settled and done’ for now. I have no doubt it will raise its head again. I hope it is not within my lifetime.
Honest to fuck, it’s rare that I meet actual bigots first hand.
And yet I walked out of the pub screaming ‘I hope your motorbike crashes, you racist bigoted fuck’.
Am I now an SJW? :\
poorpoorpitifulme replied to your post “Honestly though, the quality of the anon hate I get is pitiful. Must…”
My stalkery anon has come back, have you seen?
Noo… when will they give up?
You’re so polite though, welcoming them back :P You must have missed them?
Thank you. As I have said previously I mainly feel relieved today rather than jubilant. And that does seem to be the general feeling of the no voters that I have spoken to today. They were worried for their future, upset at the thought of giving up what we have. We feel like a weight has been lifted from our shoulders today.
As for the vote tampering - I saw a post on here earlier that didn’t seem to amount to much to me, given that the counts are all checked and verified therefore any misplaced votes would surely have been discovered? Also there is very very little in the media about this, surely if this was serious then it would be more widely reported? I mean, there’s this article but I am not sure I can take it seriously - they mention ‘research’ by Buzzfeed. I tend to think it’s just yes supporters being pissy, to be blunt.
Is this the same person?
Either way I will repeat… if you’re going to send ridiculous anonymous messages telling me I am an awful person, you might at least clarify in what way you think I am worthless.
Put more effort in next time.
Any particular reason you think I am worthless scum anon?
I mean, if you’re going to send faceless messages you might have put the effort in to being a bit more specific and actually put some thought into your pointless threats… No?
Damn Scots, they ruined Scotland!
Damn Scots they saved Scotland, more like :P
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